has been a lot of talk about the white and black violence there was a tremendous violence between the anc and cata rival movement, lack of social trust. so you could have drawn a very negative scenario for south of ca. in fact, i ronuously did so in some of my reporting down there because i just felt bad social fabric. and it's very hard for leaders to counterago that. >> woodruff: even after he was released. >> right, i was involved in riot, people getting killed. it was ugly. and yet i think by force of moral example h thises with one of those rare case when somebody at the top of society really has a cultural effect. and leads, really averts what could have been quite a disaster. and the country did much, much better in the ensuing years. i think because sheer moral example. >> woodruff: mark, what about you? what do you think of when you think of him? >> well,-- some leaders are respected, and few leaders are loved. nelson mandela is that unique figure who is both loved and respected, virtually around the globe. it's a remarkable achievement. and what i think of is he described resent